Episode 57, “Empire of the Petal Throne as an OD&D Supplement”

00:04.38
Victor
Well it is February Twenty Twenty four and that means well yeah I suppose March February March. It’s the beginning of the year and that means that we are. At the fiftieth anniversary of the release of dungeons and dragons the original dungeons and dragons and not too surprisingly. Lots of people are talking about it but it seemed to me as though that we could look at empire the pedal throne as an od and d supplement.

00:23.66
James
Yes.

00:40.40
James
What do you mean by that. Okay.

00:43.60
Victor
And well ah I I think this there’s a sense today that oh these are very different games and you know they’re you know, really you know empire to the pedal throne is for techmel.

00:57.58
Victor
And yet I recall quite distinctly that in the past people have talked about using Empire the pedal throne and some of the techaml elements but you know frankly, um, some of the game itself in their D and D games in there Originally there O D and D games and um. It seems to me that back in the you know in the past back in the day we might not have drawn such firm lines between ah different games and certainly that I.

01:33.60
James
So right.

01:34.28
Victor
That’s that’s really what I’m getting at is O D and D borrowed from many places. So.

01:41.55
James
Yeah, well I mean I like this is that’s a very interesting topic. Um, the 1 thing I do know for sure and I’m sure you’ve probably heard of this as well. Um, Rob Kuntz was actually a fan of tech mal of empire the pedal throne and ah in his own. Campaign which was sort of an adjunct to Gary Geigax’s own. He borrowed monsters from empire the pedal throne for use in it. Um, because a few years ago. He republished a portion of his dungeon. Um, and.

02:06.20
Victor
Exactly.

02:16.65
James
There’s a notes in it where he’s explains that you know these creatures originally came from Empire the pedal throne and in fact, the interesting thing about them is the the monsters in question I often wondered if they were kind of a missing link between um, Empire the pedal throne and um. A D and D actually because things like the um oh what’s it. Ah, the the trapper and the lurker above for example are very very similar to to ep Monsters. There’s the oh the Neuro Neuro and um.

02:50.74
Victor
Nor of them.

02:54.78
James
What’s the other one called the maraallu I think it’s called um is that what it is I can’t remember now what’s the thing that cut that comes down from above and attacks you burieed Lou thank you? Um, right? and I’ve often wondered if the the.

02:59.67
Victor
The modern scanling. Oh the oh the beard blue The alert has.

03:13.15
James
Very similar d and d monsters a d and d monsters originally were inspired by tech amount. It’s quite possible because Rob Kutz you know, used some of these things in his own game. So clearly people were doing that like we have at least 1 instance where where you know that’s the case. But I mean do you know of others like so. That you’ve encountered or you heard of people talking. So.

03:35.19
Victor
Well I’ve I’ve wondered to what extent that creatures like the aug and the neoatu ah were in some ways something of a semi referencefer to the a hoa.

03:50.69
James
I Hm that’s interesting.

03:51.70
Victor
And multi limb strange creatures. Ah yeah, I’m looking at some strategic review number 3 um, and yeah, the lurker above. Ah. Number appearing is 1 to 4 the armor class is six. The move is one inch I assume crawling or nine inches flying it’s got 10 hit dice a 50% chance in the layer and no treasure. And it does 1 to 6 points of constriction damage per turn and it also smothers and they move about my means of a gas which makes them neutrally buoyant and a flapping of their wing-like appendages and when disturbed they’ll drop from the ceiling. And smothering all creatures beneath in the rough fold of its quote wings unquote. Okay, and that yeah if you compare that to the bitter glue. Um.

04:58.56
James
Which is a much less impressive creature by comparison. Um I’ve used Beard Lou many times in my my own campaign and they’re much I think they only have like four hit dice or something like this so they’re yeah so they’re not nearly as as impressive. But.

05:02.20
Victor
Yes.

05:09.35
Victor
4 plus 1

05:14.76
James
But I think the the bigger thing is you know ept rules wise is fairly close to original d and d um it even interestingly preserves. For example, the um, the original 3 classes.

05:32.26
Victor
Um, yep.

05:33.57
James
For example, right? like there is and it makes me wonder but I Well’ll just say is there is no thief equivalent in ep now obviously on some level you can look at that and say well it just doesn’t fit very well in with this society that is presented in Epc which makes sense. But I I have occasionally thought if the thief had been one of the original classes of original d and d um would techml have had an equivalent like would Professor Burer have made something that was similar and.

06:09.69
Victor
I have found in my own playing of empire of the pedal throne that ah ah, there’s an awful lot of interest in um, the Assassin Spy Tracker as a skill in the in the original skills.

06:22.19
James
Oh for sure.

06:27.76
Victor
So ah to to me that just seems like ah yeah, Thiefs thieves are not socially acceptable in Techml Ah, but there are people who engage in the activities that a thief engages him right.

06:43.50
James
Right? right? And again you know what I wonder is just if if the thief had been there in that 1974 book and Professor Barker have been introduced to.

06:45.80
Victor
And D and d.

06:52.70
Victor
Rhythm.

06:57.37
James
D and d with all 4 of those classes would he have found a way to make an analog or adapt it to the social structure that he had for techbound. Um.

07:07.89
Victor
You know that’s an interesting question because I I suspect you probably could that there would be something along of the wines of a tomb robber as ah, The. The thief class I mean that you could have thieves of a sort ah that they would you know be skilled in dealing with underworlds I mean we even have a character in the man of Gold who pretty much ah, fits that.

07:43.70
James
And.

07:45.12
Victor
Right? Simmanua I’m probably mispronouncing his name Simon you ah the yeah, the traitor the part he heganu um traitor from Penome I up Penum was a per them all.

07:59.52
James
Yes, yeah, just an interesting thing because I I think about it a lot only in the sense that a lot of like the rules.

08:02.45
Victor
And yeah I mean now.

08:16.27
James
And even the presentation of techaml in ept is clearly influenced by original d and d because that was the only roleplaying game that Press Barker would have been familiar with at the time. That’s what he he knew and it fired his imagination so much that he went off and he wrote that manuscript and adapted it rather impressively.

08:27.34
Victor
Right.

08:35.96
James
But there are still many aspects of it I think that are clearly derivative of original D and D and um I find that really fascinating in a lot of ways and I suspect given how little. Rpg Material. There was at the time that you know when the maker the publisher of D and D releases this game that a lot of people assuming they could afford it ah would have picked up a copy or been interested in at the very least and see what was there that they could then use in their own games.

09:12.70
Victor
There’s certainly some mention of that that takes place in alarms and excursions. It’s reference. Yeah, some of the early issues of a and E are pretty clear in stating that empire the pedal throne was seen as being.

09:15.30
James
Oh really I.

09:28.41
Victor
Wildly expensive and interesting particularly if you wanted to add it to your D and D game.

09:31.96
James
I Yeah I mean I I and again I I think it’s pretty.. It seems clear to me again I have not done any ah and deep research into this. But I think that because you know building on the foundation that. D and D had the ept wasn’t starting entirely from Scratch. It was able to do some things that you know original D and D just doesn’t have and that later D and D looked back on and brought into it I mean I Always think about. For example. The um, divine intervention rules which um, as far as I know that’s the first like I don’t think it appears anywhere else. Um, prior to that. Um and ad and D has rules like that. Not identical.

10:15.25
Victor
Um, oh yeah.

10:27.75
James
But it does have those rules and so you know I Wonder if that’s a matter of someone seeing those thinking. Wow These are really nice I’ll use them in my D and D campaign and then later when ad and D is being put together. They’re added into it because they had become.

10:42.74
Victor
Do.

10:45.77
James
You know an aspect of play right? that that they had and there it was and certainly though it didn’t affect D and D um critical hits another thing that ep introduced that becomes you know, pretty widely adopted in that aftermath I mean dean.

10:57.52
Victor
And.

11:05.17
James
D and D never adopt them until much much later. Um, yeah, but point remains. Um, you know that’s where that comes from so it it wouldn’t surprise me at all if you see some borrowing back and forth and this sort of cross pollination that’s happening because.

11:07.26
Victor
Much later. Yeah.

11:23.25
James
You know, even when I started getting into role-playing games which is a bit later than than you didn’t sort of the very late 70 s early 80 s people used almost anything as source material and yeah fodder fodder. That’s a great way of putting it.

11:36.39
Victor
Fire. Yeah.

11:40.52
James
For whatever they were playing and it didn’t didn’t matter whether the rules systems were the same if even the genres were the same Sometimes you’d come across something and if like oh this is cool I’ll add to my D and D game or oh this is neat I’ll put it in my traveler campaign or whatever. Um, because it was there So it.

11:54.73
Victor
Yeah, no, no, that’s it air right? I mean now this this is terrible I’m I’m operating on memory and fifty years ago is you know it’s a half century. It’s so you know there.

11:58.23
James
Yeah, you’re going to have tons of that I would think.

12:07.91
James
I deep in a long time. Sure.

12:14.14
Victor
There there may be some misremembering going on here but I’ve pretty clearly recall that in that period from but 1974 to roughly 1980 that people would talk about. Using material from ah empire the pedal throne in their d and d game ardoin grew more right? Yeah ardoan comes out. Um and there was some other third party producers and and I remember at the time it was kind of like you know.

12:38.76
James
Oh for sure. Absolutely I.

12:51.45
Victor
There was some thought of can you do that and the response being why wouldn’t you you know? I mean it’s the the materials right there and people were producing it I mean in in ah in a very real way. The third party producer situation that we have today where we have you know. Hundreds if not thousands of third party producers back then there were people who were coming up with their own material and wanting to add it. Ah and and some people did and some people didn’t um, the differentiation between games came. After about 1980 you know that the the idea that somehow well this is the game and you know if you add to it from outside. Well that was seen as being ah I don’t want to say is so strong is illegitimate. But kind of like ah you you were you were outside the bounds of what was considered acceptable and I think that was kind of a result of a d and d you know.

13:55.16
James
Certainly um, yeah, things clearly were getting more. Um for lack of a better word. Um tribal I Guess I don’t know Maybe that’s not the right word. Um, um. There was a stronger Brand identity I Guess that was starting to come about and it was sort of a sense that you shouldn’t cross the streams. Um that you know each game had its own distinct lines of support and you were supposed to use those to the exclusion of everything else I mean I think.

14:11.14
Victor
Yeah, yeah.

14:28.70
James
You know as you move from something that was a hobby first and a commercial enterprise second into something that was primarily a commercial enterprise that seems inevitable that something like that would happen.

14:39.66
Victor
Yeah, no I I would agree but let’s back up for a moment I want I want to go back and and sort of put empire of the pedal throne in kind of chronological context right? So we have. Ah, original dungeons and dragons being ah released in early 1974 um, and we know the Professor Barker got a copy of original d and d after having played d and d with Michael Mennard um

15:17.14
Victor
In the fall the october through January of nineteen. So well October they the final quarter of 1973 and early 74 and ah so you know he then types up.

15:19.59
James
I.

15:36.17
Victor
What we refer to now as the mimeo ep ah that was produced in as a set of play test roles. Never released, not a public release ah in that spring of 74 and then over the course of 1974 ah Professor Barker and Gary Geigax negotiate for publication of empire the battleal throne and war of wizards right? The the other game that professor barker had produced ah and so empire of the pedal throne comes out nineteen seventy five summer of 75 so that’s after Grayhawk which appears in I think March of 1975 but I think before blackmore in you know blackmore shows up roughly I think August of 75. Um.

16:34.57
Victor
And and ah and someone will probably correct me as to dates that know them better now. But that’s last time I checked that that was what seemed to be the case and so along with warriors of Mars which had come out a little bit before that you’ve got references to. Burrows and to techaml to you know bar basically barsoom and techcommil were already there for the taking and encouraged in. Ah you know the early publications of tsr.

17:06.80
James
Yes, yeah, certainly and the thing is too I think because Ept is presenting an actual world a setting in addition to rules I think it would be a very attractive thing. For a player of D and D to just sort of immediately go to it just it’s there. It’s already some work has already been done for you whereas you know D and D doesn’t provide any of that at least initially.

17:37.29
Victor
Right? I mean in the same issue that the lurker above appears in that that third issue of the strategic review is um also Jim Ward’s article about deserted cities of Mars.

17:53.87
James
That Oh yeah, that’s right.

17:56.95
Victor
Ah, yeah, and so you know I see this as being part of that hole. Oh you wanted a larger you wanted a something more than an engine. Well you here you go right? Ah, and yeah, and in the. I wouldn’t say necessarily that creatures from Ept could be picked up and just plunked down in a D and D game. But I I bet they were I bet.

18:24.20
James
And well I mean rules wise. There’s not that much difference between them as far as the way they’re presented right? I mean the the stats for monsters in EpT are Almost identical I think to those in original D and D I can’t recall any significant differences mechanically I mean.

18:47.51
Victor
You know, mechanically I don’t think really that there are ah I do think there are I mean some of the differences that appear. Ah well wait. Wait. Let’s let’s talk about similarities number appearing armor class movement rates. Hit dice. Um the chance of whether or not um, the monsters are encountered in their layer. Um, that’s interesting. Um, yes.

19:13.48
James
The treasure types are different and.

19:23.46
Victor
And that’s one of those things there that’s probably worth noting is that ah the treasure types there there treasure types for when they’re not encountered in their lair and treasure types for when they are okay which is interesting.

19:43.36
Victor
Ah, and certainly that you know in terms of hit dice the hit dice and original d and d or 6 siders that’s maintained in empire the battle throne. Um, yeah, so in terms of how to use creatures. Ah that’s a.

20:03.11
Victor
It It made it pretty easy to do that.

20:06.80
James
It up. Yeah precisely and you know, even even since we were talking about treasure I mean even the treasure types that exist in um, ept there. Also mechanically not that different from the sorts of things that you would find in original dose of Dragons I mean magic ah magic weapons For example are pretty much exactly the same um and then you know you have I mean the eyes are obviously a special case. But I mean you’ve got these various miscellaneous magic items and things and some of them. Again I don’t know some of them bear remarkable similarity to things that appear in D and D and or would later appear in D and D and so that’s another one where I again I wish I had why I could just look at the list but I wish I had a good example of one immediately where I’m like oh. Look This is here. There’s nothing like this in D and D but a D and D has something like this I Wonder if it was influenced by that or whatever. Um.

21:06.45
Victor
Well I I have to think that a bunch of the artifacts that appear in eldritch wizardry are at least thematically influenced by yeah.

21:18.57
James
Thematically for sure for sure. Um, though that said, um, there are certainly there are examples of I think well so ep the published version is post grayhawk and clearly shows that in as much as. Um, like there’s certain magic items that appear in did I hear you say so I thought you I heard you you respond? Um, because now I’m doubting myself actually. Um, for example, all the books that appear in empire The pedal throne.

21:41.50
Victor
Go ahead.

21:53.19
Victor
Um.

21:53.61
James
Some of them are pretty similar to the ones that appear in Greyhawk in terms of you know if you were a you know if you’re a priest and you read this, you gain a level if you’re at the appropriate alignment or whatever you know this is for good priests. This is for evil priests. This is for good magic users evil magic users and so on so forth. Um, and those appear in grayhawk.

22:04.64
Victor
Yeah.

22:13.49
James
Um, do you know when like were they there where did they come from.

22:19.71
Victor
I’m fairly sure the the Mimeo E P T has them ah there as well. Um.

22:28.54
James
And the date for the Mimeo E P is when have we a step so is that post greyhawk.

22:34.66
Victor
Spring 74? No not at all it predates Grayhawk significantly. Um, it’s it’s funny I mean this goes back to some of my own research. Um throughout 1974 it’s it’s funny I ended up doing a fair bit of research which is on the odd 74 discussion board about this about all the articles that gary wrote most of which appeared well many of which appeared in. Jim Lervie’s great planes game player and game and later game log. Ah, but it included things like the extraordinary strength chart um and and a number of other things but a lot of the material that was included in Grayhawk was.

23:26.21
James
Right? So could could could Professor Barker have seen it.

23:27.69
Victor
In development through throughout 1974 um possibly I I can’t say no but I would also probably say um.

23:47.27
Victor
That that it’s it. It’s not a it’s night I’m not sure I could confirm it or deny it I’m not sure that’s very helpful. 1

23:53.19
James
Right? No no, no I’m just trying to think about you know the back and forth that would have occurred between um D and D and Ebt because well.

24:02.97
Victor
Well I think I think the the games are definitely in ah, a kind of dialogue with one another right? Ah, but to the extent that that dialogue. Um.

24:08.99
James
Right.

24:21.23
Victor
Ah, that that would Professor Barker have seen the material for ager on I would actually say probably no I mean my suspicion is probably not and I say that not because I mean the real reason why why? I don’t think Professor Barker would have seen it is that he was perfectly fine making stuff up on his own. Um and whether or not somebody else was coming up with stuff. Everybody was coming up with things at the time. Um, and that’s one of the reasons why I’m saying well. Ah, you know it’s it’s it’s unknown. um yeah um I mean for me looking at grayhawk a lot of the expansion materials are kind of like you know, somebody looking at the stuff in original d indian saying. Ah I can you know expand on this in this way and ah it wouldn’t take much to and to do that. Um.

25:29.88
James
Yeah, yeah, again I’m just trying to sort of pin down certain things as to where they might have come from because as I say some of those um the books for example, many of them are very clearly influenced by what I see in grayhawk but um. What’s interesting to me beyond that I mean that’s not surprising if that’s the case. What’s more interesting to me is that then Professor Barker took that and ran with it and expanded upon it because there are a number of other books There’s a lot more ah tomes and books magical ones that is. In ept than there is in d and d um and it seems to me that you know he he may have been inspired by those initial ideas provided um things that are comparable. But then said oh this is really neat. Maybe I can do something more. Imaginative with it then just simply you know you read this book you gain a level kind of a thing. Um and you know you look at those those books there and there screws quite a number of them in in ept. That’s why I was just wondering. You know how soon they were introduced into into the text.

26:39.98
James
But I don’t know.

26:43.53
Victor
Um, well I’m doing a little bit of looking here and one of the things. Um Wow That’s really. Um, helpful this this is a bad case if I ought I ought to have done a little bit more digging here ahead of time but the Mimeo ep T has ah.

27:19.11
Victor
Yeah, it actually all all the books I’m I’m looking at the text here and the the books that appear in the tsr version of ept they’re they’re here in the Mimeo ep ah so in that sense. Um.

27:29.13
James
And right. And well then that makes me wonder if it isn’t the other way around that this was something that was in ep from the beginning and that you know Guygax thought wow this is a great idea I’ll include some of these in d and d.

27:48.40
Victor
I suspect. So um, that that I think makes a little bit more sense I mean because as I’m looking at this right now. The Mimeo Ept has all sorts of. I mean let’s see here I’m I’m doing the the numbering here there are 20 books. Okay, um, ah so a bit. There’s a few more in empire in the.

28:11.39
James
That Yeah I think that’s the same number that’s an empire the pedal throne.

28:24.59
Victor
Tsr ep t there are 24 books yeah just like there’s there’s 33 eyes in the Mimeo ep and 36 in the tsr version. So there’s 20 books here.

28:28.50
James
Ah, okay.

28:42.57
Victor
Um, yeah, um, and yeah, there’s the books. Um, there’s scrolls. There’s arms and armor.

29:02.77
Victor
Um.

29:08.10
Victor
That’s interesting I’m wondering I’d have to go back and look a little bit more about there’s the ah the list of the gods and divine Intervention. Ah. There is the miscellaneous magical items. Um, yeah, the miscellaneous magical items are in there and amulets. And yeah I mean it’s interesting Empire The pedal throne for example and in one of the. Clear departures from D and D has no potions. There’s There’s nothing like that at all.

29:50.89
James
Yeah, no, that’s right, that’s right, that’s that’s a big difference. Um between the games mean potions are a very common low level magic item in d and d and there is nothing equivalent as my players have lamented on more than one occasion. Um. There’s there is no equivalents in empire the pedal throne. But again I think that’s just an example of how Professor Barker adapted um you know used od and d as a framework but still it had to be um, changed. And or to fit the world that he already had in mind even if certain details didn’t solidify for a very long time I guess for whatever reason he didn’t like the idea of potions he felt they didn’t fit. They were not sort of you know what? he what he wanted to exist and in in techma which.

30:37.60
Victor
And.

30:45.46
James
Make sense that’s fine that. But yeah, there’s clearly a big end. There’s a lot of interplay between the 2 between the games and.

30:47.62
Victor
And and yeah, yeah, some of the ways in which the games are in dialogue with one another just one of the other things we’ve we’ve talked about critical hits as being one of those things that. It comes here. It may very well be I think the first you know formal statement of a critical hit rule in a D and D like game. Um, there’s also the adjudication of who gets experience points. Okay, um. And I say this mostly because of you know the question of well you know it’s it’s it’s left open in original D and D but in empire the puddle throne when you kill a monster Whoever is the one who kills the monster gets the experience. For killing that monster and nobody else and my suspicion on this is that in fact, actually ah I would say it’s pretty much a certitude of this is that.

31:58.75
Victor
Professor Barker had seen early on in playing od and d that there would be disputes about well I should get more experience because I did the most damage to the monster. Well no I should because I made it possible for you to kill it or you know or I should because I killed it right. And in order to shut down some of those early um dare I say non-constructive debates in the game. Ah Professor Barker wanted to you know, sort of define it and put it out there and that’s that. That problem is now solved whether or not it was a problem. It’s a different story but he’s solved it for you right? anticipated and put it out of the way. Um as well as also borrowing ah the whole idea of well wait a second who’s supposed to get a magic item right? You find a magic at him who’s supposed to get it. And in original empire the pedal throne There’s you know this is how you divide up treasure and this is how you determine who gets what and I think a lot of that was done mostly to um, forestall any ambiguity left over from d and d.

33:10.39
James
And perhaps it just creates different different problems. Unfortunately.

33:15.40
Victor
Yeah, no yeah, that no kidding I’m not saying that the way that Professor Barker came up with the solution was necessarily solving anything. It merely was kind of a statement of you know how you know if if you’re going to follow the rules. It’s like this there you know. Um, yeah I mean the statement you know this is on ah, what is it I think it’s page 27 in the ept rules experience. Points are given only to the character actually killing an opponent an enemy incapacitated by 1 player and then killed by another is credited to the latter. No matter how much effort the first player expended in attempting to slay the being um sort of ones you know you you want to be the last person in combat, you know every everyone’s done their damage you come in up I killed it. Okay there you go.

34:10.87
Victor
That that’s that I’m sure that will solve everything not so another place where the the games are in dialogue with one another is ah again around combat like. Um, well how much damage do you do and it’s not just the critical hit. But there’s also the differences in attacker and defender levels affects how much damage is done to the defender. So if you’ve got a very high level attacker and a very low level defender. Ah, well you know, ah there there could be a lot of damage done right? and I think that that’s a case of Professor Barker choosing to do something else than the rule that shows up in a strategic review about you know well a fighter when faced with. Ordinary man opponents right? Ah, the one hit die or less creatures will do this many attacks right? As many attacks as their level. Ah, but only when if they’re facing a fantastical creature or somebody higher level. Then everybody just gets 1 right? And yeah, empire of the pell throne says we’re we’re not making that strong a distinction. It’s just if you got a very powerful attacker and a very weak defender. Um, this will end badly for the defender.

35:38.91
James
So.

35:42.87
Victor
So but some we’ve we’ve talked a little bit here about you know how the games are in dialogue with one another. And you mentioned you start off by talking about how Rob Kuns had borrowed things from empire the pedal throne was it monsters was there also magical items I I have to admit, interesting. Yeah and I know that some people would.

36:06.30
James
It was only monsters. It was only monsters so far as I recall.

36:16.42
Victor
Adopt Magic items out of empire the pedal throne and use them in their game. Ah but I I think all the possibilities are there. Um, and certainly this does give Rise to some speculation About. Ah. The most famous or infamous pastiche of taconel that is exists out there.

36:38.42
James
Yes, That’s true that is that’s very true but that that mean that’s literally I think you know much more about this than I but I mean that’s literally a case of ept being used just as a kind of. Adjunct to D and D like literally and in a campaign. Yes, yeah.

36:58.93
Victor
Ah, that’s my understanding. Yes, ah that ah I mean as Ray Feist has apparently explained it that.

37:12.61
Victor
He was playing in a d and d game where material was being used from techml and ah that served as inspiration for his um ah the the books about the brift war saga which then later caused a great deal of. Um, I would say conflict between Ray Feist and professor tech professor barker so which ah, that’s another panel as we say in science fiction. That’s that whole.

37:33.28
James
And.

37:44.96
James
Yeah, but the thing is what’s interesting about it from from my perspective just is that if the story is accurate as to what was going On. You’re talking about a you know referee who’s running a D and D campaign and he decides to import. A large amount of material from Empire the pely throne directly into that D and D campaign. Um, so it is. It’s like clearly somebody saw it as being the kind of thing that you could do relatively easily without a whole lot of of of difficulty And. Saw it as a perfectly reasonable approach to you know this this new material that that’s been published by tsr that it’s sort of like well yeah, we can just just borrow bits of that and throw it into my my D and D campaign and why shouldn’t we and again I. As you alluded to earlier On. We were talking about it I think that that was just it was a bit more ah accepted in those days that there would be such a thing this kind of more wild West I Guess thing where any anything that was out there was if it wasn’t nailed Down. You could use it in your D and D campaign anything that was available. Um I mean hack for that matter D and D itself is like that. So why? Why wouldn’t you.

39:13.30
Victor
And ah I think that that was what I mean this was also at a time when there weren’t modules as well. That. Yeah, the idea of what a campaign was was entirely up for discussion. It could be well here’s the dungeon um up to and including well here’s an entire world right? ah. and and I guess that it I’m I’m now intrigued by the idea of comparing warriors of Mars and empire of the pedal throne to see how each of them ends up. Um, modeling the world that it’s supposed to represent right? I mean you know empire of the bubble throne. We understand that that you know it’s tech him out right? there? Ah but warriors of bars is this attempt to ah if if not directly at least indirectly. Ah, support a game set ah in barsoo in Edgar right? The world of Edgar Rice Burroughs and that shows up in d and d I mean it’s there I mean you know you’ve got encounter charts that are very explicit. You know here you know here here are you know creatures from barsoo.

40:38.19
Victor
I Think that these days what people end up doing is they end up getting focusing on you know, hobbits and ballrogs and ends ah in D and D and don’t pay that much attention to the things that came from elsewhere right.

40:52.21
James
Well, if I were to be somewhat cynical about it. I mean the truth is all that other stuff is not well-known anymore. I mean John Carter does not have a large cultural footprint anymore whereas the lord of the rings. Thanks largely I suspect to the movies in the early 2000 that it’s more well-known so people will be able to say oh look it used to have hobbits and nts and nosle and things like it’s like yeah, it’s true, but it it also had you know bants.

41:16.17
Victor
Yeah, yeah.

41:26.50
James
And ah green Martians and and and so forth in it. But no one knows what a banth is anymore.

41:34.10
Victor
Right? no no I I think you’re right about that I don’t I I don’t even think that’s a matter of cynicism. That’s just simply recognizing the cultural reality that um, yeah, the the world of ah barsoom and Edgar Riceborough’s legacy is. In some um it it doesn’t it doesn’t have as much salience as it once did right? So so yeah I mean here are these things about techml that get borrowed into. Um, ah yeah into d and d as it were. Why is it? Do you think that people don’t do ah adventures going the other way that you know. We’re going to take our d and d characters into techml is it just that it won’t fit or um, yeah I’m I’m I’m kind of curious James. What your thoughts are about.

42:38.30
James
Um I don’t know I mean um I wouldn’t be surprised if people had done things like that again, the the um that.

42:48.50
Victor
There is the the somewhat infamous representation of the the stuffed hobbit in the written.

42:55.40
James
Right? Well right? That’s right, you’ve you’ve talked about that before about the the the hobbit in the was it some sort of Jacallan Zoological park or something like them. Okay, he has a hobbit.

43:07.78
Victor
In the zoological gardens of Prince Ra Kala and and truly this was something of an inside joke with Professor Barker’s players. You know? Oh yes, there are there hobbits on techl. Yes, there’s one of them you know and. Ah I think it was a ah case of regarding ah some of the source material from d and d as being beneath considerations like where wonderful.

43:37.70
James
Well not just that but wouldn’t it also have been a case of um players who their familiarity with it’s like oh tech Mel it’s a empire the pell throne. It’s it’s like d and d right can I play a hobbit or. As you’ve talked about before can I play a night right? Um, and then Professor Barker’s like sure you can do that haha you’ll see how that works out right? But um.

43:56.60
Victor
Yeah.

44:06.24
Victor
Well right? and I mean that that was in my own experience I recall quite distinctly when Michael Menard wanted to play ah a medieval knight because he wanted he he wanted something. He wanted the character that he regarded as being more intelligible more understandable Michael had strong ideas about what that would look like and what it would mean because I I think that Michael in particular was somewhat bothered by what. What he perceived as a sort of moral relativism of empire the pedal throne of tech amel and whereas Professor Barker I think tended to regard Michael’s idea as being somewhat idealistic and not really in touch with how people dealt with things. So.

44:52.81
James
Right.

44:56.63
Victor
So in in in that sense I think part of the issue is a more fundamental disagreement about well what are we doing here right? Ah rather than you know I want to play a medieval knight because I like medieval knights yeah. So um, no I and and maybe in just recounting that particular story that 1 of the things that this suggests is that when people come to empire to the pedal throne when they they encounter tecomel they’re drawn to the world. That the world itself is the thing that they find interesting and so they don’t really see the need to import things from generic fantasy into their ah techml campaign.

45:55.89
Victor
So so do you think that’s really empire of the pedal throne ends up being really just in dialogue with original D and D or ah you had suggested earlier that maybe it’s.

46:10.18
James
Um, well what I would say is I think um, ep T despite not being a very widely popular game compared to Dungeon dragons.

46:10.33
Victor
Advanced sentence in Dragons as well.

46:25.12
James
It certainly punched above its weight in terms of the amount of influence that it had ah over the Hobby I mean I suspect that a lot of people who played um in the seventy s were. Knowingly or unknowingly influenced by ideas or game mechanics or just presentations in a re-presentations of things that already been in D and D then they realized um, but um, so that probably explains to some extent why you know ad and D might have a few little elements in it that. Go back to Ep but I think ept very strongly belongs to the you know that early first five years or so of of the Hobby. Um, that’s when the game was still being published I think by tsr and um was more easily ah attainable than it would become later.

47:08.81
Victor
Minute.

47:15.11
James
So people will be exposed to it a bit more and the game system itself was obviously very ah inspired by or derivative of original D and D So I think to the extent that there was um.

47:29.60
James
This kind of cross-pollination and dialogue going on. It was probably in the earlier phase of things original d and d more so than later um because I think again that just part of the climate of of the hobby at that point there was a lot more openness to that by the by the time a d and d came out. Things were starting to get a bit more cramped. Um, both in the sense that there were more games available. But also I think people’s thinking about how those games related to each other was becoming more restrictive more narrow. So I would say that yeah it’s it’s definitely o d and d. More than anything else and then after that unfortunately you know ept’s influence becomes a bit more distant I imagine you know it’s just it’s not It’s not something that I mean you know by 19159 when I first started playing I had never.

48:14.10
Victor
Yeah.

48:24.41
James
No one talked about empire the pedal throne. It wasn’t something that was was very common. You wouldn’t hear people talk but I certainly never saw anybody play it. Um, so by that point I assuming my experience was typical. It was probably not that.

48:41.82
James
Influential anymore. Um, the the dialogue was was done but there were certainly ideas. You know we talked about critical hits earlier but there were certainly ideas that were still floating around that ultimately go back to to ep.

48:58.33
Victor
Yeah, so there’s this window that happens at the beginning of the hobby where techml and empire of the pedal throne are are influenced by original d and d ah and in turn influence. Things that come later. Um I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we were to talk with designers of other games that they would end up saying oh yes, you know, certainly we know that Professor Barker and Greg Stafford ended up talking with one another and so you know there. There there is that comparison between corantha and techaml. But yeah, um, ah probably the thing that really does that that makes it ah it sort of ends. This discussion is um.

49:33.81
James
He.

49:50.60
Victor
The publication of swords and glory and I mean that mostly in the sense that swords and glory is that example of early eighty s Rpg design where we must have a rule for everything A complete game has rules for. Every situation up to and including player character hit by falling Catapult Shot. So.

50:17.63
James
Right? right? and also to you know because it has its own unique game system mechanics at that point so that makes that kind of dialogue that happened early on that cross-pollination harder simply because it’s not um, easily compatible. What requires more work.

50:22.80
Victor
In.

50:35.43
James
To be able to swipe something and then port it to a different game whereas ept being very similar to D and D ah that makes that job easier and.

50:49.00
Victor
Yeah, um, the proliferation of different game designs by the mid 80 s meant that um there you know the the conversation had largely stopped.

51:14.38
James
It was a bit of an abrupt ending but I don’t know what else more to say to be honest I felt we were slightly going around in circles a bit and.

51:18.53
Victor
Yeah I’m I’m kind of in the same a little bit. Um I don’t you know in in terms of the discussion of things you know one of the things that. Could be done if somebody wanted to would be to go through all the places in empire the pedal throne where it really does seem to be the case that Professor Barker said I’m going to explain this more I’m going to here’s this thing that gets brought up in d and d and I’m going to explain it better. Um.

51:53.35
Victor
You know everything from how combat works to you know the idea of larger combats and also the idea that and Professor Barker does this a lot in empire of the pedal throne is oh if you need a game for this. Go look for this right. If you want to do larger combats on land go pick up a copy of chain mail if you want to do c battles go pick up a copy of trirame.

52:21.53
James
Yeah, and yes I mean he also mentions. Um, when talk about building underworlds he references volume 3 of od and d or yeah, so yeah, the wilderness and underworld adventures. So.

52:31.46
Victor
That’s right.

52:36.47
Victor
Um, um, but now I for for what it’s worth um, my feeling about empire of the pedal throne which I suspect may have. Had a somewhat daunting effect on Gary and the yeah the gamers in link geneva was here’s a game where somebody took the original rules and explained everything more. Clearly and distinctly. Um, and and also did it in ways that don’t quite end up matching the ideas that gary and and others had had um I mean it’s interesting. We don’t really hear about. That we hear a little bit about Gary looking for a simpler sort of introductory version of d and d and coming across the material you know coming? Yeah building a relationship with John Eric Holmes and Dr Holmes coming up with holmes basic. And holmes basic has its own take on things that don’t match what was done in Lake Neva either right? Um, so there there are games here. Ah probably warlock is another example of that which actually as far as I can tell warlock ends up influencing.

54:05.67
Victor
Chivalry and sorcery coming a little bit later in 1977 but all of these sort of responses to d and d um, you know, maybe Gary really was onto something when he said no, we have to have a more defined set of rules just because of that.

54:25.50
Victor
But that’s speculation I don’t know but I do think that empire the pedal throne is one of the games that clearly had an effect on what came later for D and d.

54:37.49
James
So yeah I think that’s right? so.

54:49.56
Victor
Yeah, ah yes, yes, we can go for it. 6 questions looking forward to this and Chris go ahead and just talk. It’s right.

55:04.33
badger2305
I can’t believe that I had my mic off while I was saying all of that. Sorry obviously all right James you said if they could afford it I believe this was in reference to ept.

55:11.66
Victor
Um, but okay, clip that out. Yeah.

55:20.88
James
Yes, $25 that’s almost a hundred I know it’s it’s more than that I think it’s closer to a hundred is it not Victor. We talked about this before.

55:22.78
badger2305
Do you recall? what? the original price point was and adjusted for inflation now that’d probably be about 65 to 75

55:35.30
Victor
Yeah, it’s it’s it’s $25 in 1975 would be about a hundred two hundred and ten dollars today

55:43.95
badger2305
Okay, as to the second question victor you mentioned material from ept and d and d during 1974 to 1980 and other producers are there any other. Popular third priority producers from that time that you would recommend that.

56:05.73
Victor
Oh I men um some of them. Ah a lot of them now are are really kind of um they’re in the collector’s market. Ah, but I recall quite distinctly. And and this is my recollection. You know I mean other people will remember other things. Um, but I do think that? um, ah, third party producers of material include what was it? Um oh what is it the character or kick right? Yeah, coming out of California. Ah, certainly warlock coming. That’s the California version of d and d somewhat overpowered version of d and d while overpowered depends on what you like Um, there were also little booklets that came out. There was a book of demons a book of spells. Ah, these were the titles right and a book of treasure if I recall correctly. Ah and and the big difference here is that today we have the tools to produce you know, zines and publications. In ways that just weren’t available back then the idea of sitting down. Okay I’m going to type this out and then take it to a printer and have it type set and then produced as a booklet. Um, now you’re talking real money and people there was a much steeper threshold for um.

57:35.53
Victor
Getting something printed but people did people did tombs of Balla is another product that comes out certainly tunnels and trolls ah kind of fits into this category before going off and being its own thing. Ah. Tunnels and controls is you know another example of a game that ends up being in Dialogue with D and D but promptly goes off and and in order to distinguish itself because yeah, thematically it’s very close to D and D but it ends up doing it very differently.

58:07.88
badger2305
Okay, so you guys mentioned that there aren’t any potions in Ept So as a new gamer who potentially might want to check it out. How do you or even can you heal during battle in ept.

58:16.35
Victor
Um.

58:27.65
James
Spells Cure spells like like in D and D That’s the primary way.

58:33.20
Victor
Um, that’s the primary way and then eyes right? eyes being devices which are um, analogous mechanically to um, wands and states right. So the ineluctable eye of healing would be 1 way. Ah, if someone has an eye of ah that that does that that that would be the way you do it I’m trying to remember if there’s an eye that heals diseases. But. Certainly it’s the ineluctable eye of healing and what’s interesting about that is that it’s like oh well, no no I’m sorry it is it. It does that that’s right oh my goodness. How did I forget the ineluctable eye healing cures diseases instantly. And also cures 2 6 sided dice of hit wound damage per charge and it may also be used instead of a successful saving throw against disease or poison. It must be used first not after a saving throw was attempted and failed. So ah yeah. So yeah, ah and also scrolls which provide that spells that people can use. Yeah so put potions aren’t it other devices. Do it.

59:53.10
badger2305
Okay, you mentioned the last hit kills in Ept gets the experience now I found this very interesting because being a more modern computer gamer I’m used to the word kill stealing. So.

01:00:02.38
Victor
Um, yeah.

01:00:10.91
Victor
Oh yeah.

01:00:11.77
badger2305
Would you say that ept definitely brought about the idea of what modern gamers would absolutely say is kill stealing.

01:00:21.94
Victor
I yeah I would I it’s it’s a rule one of the very first house rules that I implemented in my empire the pedal throne game was to not use that rule in my own game and and it was precisely. Yeah, yeah.

01:00:34.73
James
I Yeah I don’t use it all I don’t use it either.

01:00:37.10
badger2305
Okay, you guys actually answered my followup as as to if in your games you did anything to differentiate or circumvent that to stop any at the table infighting.

01:00:40.62
Victor
Yeah.

01:00:51.55
Victor
Ah, you you end up having a choice of infighting that takes place and I prefer the one where people have to end up being reasonable about what they contributed to the fight and maybe just dividing it equally is much simpler there. Thank you.

01:01:02.25
James
Well, the simplicity is the main reason I did otherwise you have a lot of bookkeeping where you have to remember who’s responsible for killing what who gets the experience.

01:01:12.91
Victor
Yeah I I have to think that this also feeds into professor you know or or at least reflects Professor Barker’s idea that ah you should be heroic and by heroic that means you should be the person who kills it you know. It’s to encourage fighters to go and stride into combat for magic users and priests to you know Yeah use magic to do creatures in. Um, but yeah, kill stealing I I think that’s ah ah yes, that.

01:01:46.68
badger2305
Okay, so Victor you brought up the crunchy rules of I think it was swords and sorcery I don’t remember which system but you had mentioned in the early eighty s where even the damage swords and glory would you say both of you James and Victor would you say that that was good or.

01:01:47.32
Victor
That’s what’s going on. Ah.

01:01:58.38
Victor
All sorts of glory right.

01:02:06.16
badger2305
Bad for the development of some of the new systems that decided to get as crunchy as those. So.

01:02:12.80
Victor
Oh I think it was happening at the same time I mean this is the same time that arms law is getting produced the role master. Yeah, the the predecess it was originally produced kind of I’m so incoherent arms law. The predecessor to the role master system was if I recall correctly originally produced as a supplement as an add on a third party producer add on to combat systems for primarily d and d.

01:02:47.49
James
Yes, that’s correct. Yep.

01:02:52.57
Victor
And then there was arms law and then spell law and then claw law. Um and those were bundled together to constitute the core of the role master system. But yeah I mean you know what people joke about today. The you know table e criticals and arms law. Yeah. You know that that’s the sort of depth and complexity and crunchiness that got fed into sores and glory as far as I can tell James I I mean I don’t know what your thoughts would be on this but I’d I’d be curious.

01:03:24.47
James
Um I don’t think I mean it it was something that was happening sort of broadly in the hobby at the time right? So I mean I think a lot of games were getting more complex and I guess from their perspective realistic. You know they wanted to model things better.

01:03:42.17
Victor
Ah.

01:03:42.48
James
Right? So that was happening a great deal at the times I don’t know that swords and glory being ah using a system like that made it any worse than any of the others. It’s just that you know when you have an already complicated sophisticated sort of setting like techml. And then you add to it this very difficult um to learn game system. It probably didn’t help Tech Mill but I don’t I don’t think that it had any wider negative consequences because I don’t know there were many people who were actually buying and playing swords and glory at the time to be honest and.

01:04:05.73
Victor
Right.

01:04:15.13
Victor
Well and for everything that we’ve said about crunchiness certainly the spell kopora they the the material on magic was used by many people regardless of whether or not they continued. Using empire to the pedal throne or they switched to swords and glory I mean this is even in the original campaign with Professor Barker there was a lot of going back and forth between the original game ept. And the later game sos and goi and a certain amount of disregarding of both right Professor Barker eventually ends up um, doing something very much like Gary Geigax in terms of ah. Keeping things. Very simple. Ultimately when he was playing. Ah yeah, roll some dice and roll rolling low is good and rolling high is bad and you both roll dice and you see what you get? Um, so we went from being.

01:05:21.17
badger2305
Look.

01:05:25.84
Victor
Overly crunchy and complex to almost not crunchy at all.

01:05:29.29
badger2305
So okay, so for my last question this one is directed to you James because you brought it up. You had said that John Carter doesn’t have a large cultural footprint anymore now.

01:05:40.10
James
Oh.

01:05:44.20
badger2305
Would you say that is because of the movie that totally didn’t get made.

01:05:50.99
James
Um, what do you mean I mean um the movie was not very popular. It didn’t do very well I think a lot of people didn’t. Know what it was a they didn’t understand what it was I mean I’ve always said John Carter is one of those things that um is sort of a victim of its own success I mean it more or less invented a lot of the the tropes and archetypes of Science Fiction Science Fantasy as we know them today and so now. People go back and read those things those books they seem kind of trite because everything that has come since owes its origin ultimately to burros and the things that he invented but um, yeah I don’t I I don’t see a whole lot of of influence anymore of. Barsum I don’t think do people read them anymore I I don’t know I mean it was It’s not yeah I don’t know I just don’t see it I don’t see it I mean there was that movie that was made and I know um they were hoping that it might turn into something but it.

01:06:45.38
Victor
The books are a century old. You know? yeah.

01:06:59.18
James
It as I understand it it flopped really pretty badly at the box office. Yeah.

01:07:04.75
Victor
Yeah, because the marketing if nothing else was yeah completely incoherent as to what it was. You know John Carter who’s that um, there’s no there there was there was no recognition of of the source material. But what you were saying in terms of people going back and reading it and finding it trite I can substantiate that ah I had a friend. This wasn’t this wasn’t burrows but this wasspre de camp and Fletcher Pratt’s the complete enchanter and I ah. Loan that to a friend of mine. This would have been this would have been in the 80 s interestingly enough I loaned it to a friend of mine and I said you know hey take a look this this is you know some interesting material. You might enjoy. It’s you know, fantasy reading right? Okay and. He went and he read it and I asked him later you know so what did you think and he he said to me. Oh it’s ok for one of those d and d novels I said Jim. This was written in 1941 and he was like oh well then yeah, it’s it’s totally cool in a kind of like he didn’t really know what to think of it. Um.

01:08:31.23
James
Oh.

01:08:35.78
Victor
But yeah, no I I mean to talk about any of the classic fantasy not saying that everyone has to read everything you know and there’s lord knows there’s lots and lots of fantasy out there today which is perfectly worthwhile. Ah, but yeah I mean people talk about appendix n for d and d. Ah, but I wonder to what extent people actually go back and read it.

01:09:01.14
James
Yeah, well more than that I Just wonder you know when they do go back and read it what they will get out of it because they say because those books are foundational. Um.

01:09:06.85
Victor
Yeah.

01:09:11.20
James
Their ideas spread kind of far and wide to the point where they just become commonplace and when you go back and look at the go to the source frequently. The experience is not 1 of of revelation. It’s like oh this is where it come from how wonderful it starts through like yeah I know I’ve seen this before.

01:09:16.39
Victor
Right.

01:09:29.68
James
Ah, thousand times and it’s like yeah, all those thousands times are actually echoing this which came first right.

01:09:38.21
Victor
In a little bit of recognition of that. Um, for the other game that we enjoy traveler I recently finished reading sargasso of space by Andre Norton and

01:09:56.80
Victor
I I I first of all have to admit that I sometimes find Andre Norton a difficult read. She’s she’s as a stylist. She’s not my my favorite. Ah, but what was interesting about it was that when I thought about it in terms of how did this inform traveler.

01:10:15.17
Victor
It was very clear. It was very very very clear just exactly how someone could have read that book and said and okay so here’s um, how merchanting works in the future. You know how how you have merchant ships. How do they make their money. What do they do. What challenges they face. You know what equipment do they have? Um, yeah it it was you know Sargasso space is ah definitely one of the books that informed classic traveler and should be part of its appendixen so to speak. So we probably ought to do you know that that would be something else is to think about what would be some of the things that have informed techaml I think that’s a more difficult task because techaml is so. Specifically defined but talking at some point about what constitutes a potential appendix and for techmo might be worthwhile.