Episode 58, “War of Wizards”

00:00.50
Victor
So today we’re going to talk about war of wizards which interestingly enough was produced I believe before empire the pedal throne now. Ah.

00:09.84
James
I Think that’s right came out the same year as ever guy with pelotherome but it was published sooner I believe.

00:21.66
Victor
Yes, Professor Barker actually ended up producing war of wizards on his own and then proceeded to have it ah had his stock of privately printed copies. Ah, bought by tsr and then sold before tsr put out a boxed edition. So.

00:44.94
James
Well I have never seen the non-tsr edition the copy I have is the second printing from may of 76 but I know that I can’t I don’t know the precise states you might know better. But Gary Geigax is introduction. Ah forward I guess I should say is from may of 75 and his forward to ep t is July of 75.

01:09.27
Victor
That’s right. I Think that’s right.

01:15.54
James
So it’s definitely before but do know um before we get into other things are are there any significant differences between the original version. The the one that Professor Barker himself put out and the tsr version.

01:28.80
Victor
Ah I think the biggest original difference is that Ah, the original game was produced in a ziploc bag and with a folded map The booklet I believe remains the same I think tsr adds the ah.

01:46.74
Victor
What would it be the product list at the very end but the layout of the booklet is as far as I know they pretty much the same as it was that I believe So yes, so we have the.

01:55.63
James
Are the artwork is the same. Okay.

02:03.80
Victor
Ah, drawing by Professor Barker the booklet that I have this is I have to be careful I’ve separated the booklet from the box. So my booklet is digest sized of a somewhat sort of um, sort of um Moss Green not even white green color.

02:21.32
James
Yeah, mine is somewhere between a light green and a pale blue I’m not sure exactly what color it may also be a matter of its having faded with time.

02:23.32
Victor
To it.

02:28.56
Victor
Sure ah, try enough and the illustration on the front is by Professor Burker right

02:34.95
James
Yes I know that one but the interior has a piece of artwork that looks like it’s Dave Sutherland to me the the title page or is that Professor Barker too oh

02:43.30
Victor
Um, that the title page ah could be Dave Southern I think that’s actually a professor barker illustration as well. But the cover of the box. The black and red box that’s clearly a Dave Sutherland

02:51.89
James
Okay, well there you go.

02:56.62
James
Okay, well my again not to spend too much time on the differences but the the version that I have is in a ziploc bag. But it’s its yesr one. It has a copyright of ts our tactical studies rules copyright 1975

03:06.47
Victor
You you? it’s um, hu I then I there I’m not exactly sure will we have to leave this to the. People at the km 2 or a same I don’t know how to pronounce did you the the website part.

03:22.74
James
I I don’t know I know the way I know the website. Yes I know the people in fact I wouldn’t be surprised I don’t know do they have anything on their site about Ep T I Know they have all the D and D stuff Well regardless.

03:34.13
Victor
Yeah, not sure. Mine is minus marked as a second printing of may of 76 yeah so

03:40.69
James
Yeah, that’s the same one I have but it came to me when I acquired it it was in a ziploc bag Now maybe it once had a box and someone because I didn’t buy it new. Obviously I I got it subsequently. But it’s in really excellent condition. It’s it’s practically.

03:56.50
Victor
Um, you may actually have a ziploc bag version. So yeah, and and and therefore I am not at all sure it may very well have been the case.

04:00.87
James
Untouched. Okay, but it says tsr audit. So.

04:12.78
James
Well, that’s fine.

04:13.21
Victor
Yeah I’m I’m not sure I I suppose we ought ought ought to open up some sort of um ah yeah, part of the website. You know how to recognize your different copies of. Various tech amount products. Um.

04:32.56
James
Right? That could be quite interesting. Um, and I know there are people who who have a great deal of knowledge about that sort of thing.

04:37.97
Victor
Um, yes, Bill Meinhart would probably be 1 of the first people to check with.

04:44.74
James
So um, what can you tell me about the circumstances under which this game was produced.

04:52.10
Victor
Well, it’s interesting. You should mentionnch that because if you turn to ah the next page after the title page. Ah, you will see that there is a note on the inside and hopefully it’s in your copy as well special thanks to Bill Hoyt who suggested that a game such as this would be enjoyable. Okay, yeah, well ah so this actually goes back to the time when this was ah originally put together.

05:13.94
James
So yes I have that note as well. Okay.

05:28.74
Victor
Ah, and just a moment here where I don’t look this up. Ah so.

05:40.50
Victor
1 of the you know we talked about the various different fantasy authors that have influenced tech amel in 1 way or another one of them being Edgar Rice Burroughs um well interestingly enough ah when talking to Bill Hoyd about this. Ah, he drew my attention to Catherine Kurtz’s novel deny rising ah darity rising which was published as the nineteenth volume in the ballentine adult fantasy series in August of 1970.

05:58.55
James
Oh yeah I.

06:13.19
James
Um.

06:13.92
Victor
and and darrrenny rising is set in a sort of historical fantasy setting vaguely like ah great Britain. Um similar to the brit as as it says here in in the Wikipedia article.

06:23.88
James
Yes.

06:30.82
Victor
A medieval kingdom similar to the british isles of the Twelfth Century with a powerful holy church and a feudal government ruled by hereditary monarchy and there’s this distinction made between ordinary humans and the dirty a race of people with inherent psychic and magical.

06:48.24
James
Yes.

06:49.40
Victor
Qualities or abilities all right? So ah, at the end of darity rising. There is a you know the climax the story a bit of a spoiler here is a magical duel that takes place between. Ah, one of the you know the one of the protagonists of the story and ah the ah antagonist of the story right? and it’s ah ah, described in. A great deal of a very visual a great amount of visual detail and ah, very very evocative and ah Bill Hoyt and Professor Barker had both read this book and ah the subsequent books that came out in the series which is great.

07:45.91
Victor
And Bill apparently went to Phil and said would it be great if we could do something like that and ah Professor Barker who ah by this point I don’t know exactly when this took place but I suspect that it happened. Ah. Around the time that he was working on empire. The pedal throne was like well I can do that and went from there. It may may have appreciated it but I don’t think by much because once we get into looking at the inside of the war of wizards you’ll find that there’s there’s a lot of commonality. Between it and vice versa right.

08:23.70
James
Well, there are references in it to petal the empire the Pe of throne that is the the the rules right? So um, they were clearly so I would imagine there’s some bad that they’re they’re being developed in tandem with each other or at least in close like close proximity.

08:37.10
Victor
In Tandem yeah.

08:41.72
James
Before we move on though I did want to note that I think you’re right about the ah the Catherine Kurtz reference in as much as in the description of the setting of war of wizards at the very beginning Katherine Kurtz is one of the writers that is mentioned along with others I mean to be fair.

08:55.40
Victor
Been.

09:01.37
James
It’s a pretty standard listing of um, fantasy writers. Some of them are mentioned that ep is when Howard um, you know Fritz Lieber although Tolkien has mentioned Jack Vance Morecock spread to camp Lyn Carter but then Katherine Kurtz which is she’s not usually included. In these lists I mean she might be in a long list of authors that had some influence but the fact that he calls her out by name specifically along with you know, Tolkien and Howard. For example, that lends pretty good credent I think to the idea that that the dareny books probably had. Um, influence on this which again I think is really neat only from the perspective that and we this is something else. We’ve talked about before um you know what the immediate influences and inspirations for techaml and empire the pedal throne specifically were um.

09:40.60
Victor
Um, absolutely um.

09:57.20
James
Not like d and d because Professor Barker he mentions a couple of people um Howard Vance and Burroughs I think are mentioned in an ep but nothing else. Um, so seeing a larger list of authors whom he liked and ah that he thought. Would be of of interest to people who were going to play war of wizards. Um I don’t know I just find it it helpful to sort of understand at least in the early days before techmel sort of went off in its own direction under you know, development as it was being played and as professor bark was thinking were. Clearly about what he wanted. It’s just nice to know you know what things kicked it off what might have inspired him to start with and.

10:43.28
Victor
Absolutely. And yeah, that’s the the the connection back to Katherine Kurtz um you know this is this ties. You know the dedication and and everything else together.

10:58.61
Victor
Because Bill who had been working with Professor Barker on putting together empire the battleal throne. Um, you know this seemed to be a ah great way to introduce a very specific part of the setting to to to new players.

11:16.88
James
Up. Yeah, it’s interesting also. Um, even though the 2 are being developed presumably in close proximity to each other It’s hard to say there are differences too like the the setting as it’s laid out is much more um skeletal. You know you don’t get the the depth of detail that you get an empire of the pedal throne but there are some little little aspects of it that I find quite fascinating in particular the presentation of when it talks about the gods because they are. They’re different um like Professor Barker uses language that you don’t.

11:44.91
Victor
Oh yeah.

11:52.55
James
See an ept um right? which I find fascinating because early on you know he he talks about you know the conflict between light and dark good and goodness and evil law and chaos. So that’s all language that we don’t really see I mean there is good and evil.

11:55.18
Victor
That’s correct. Yes.

12:10.84
James
Because the gods are the Evil gods and the good gods and ept um but he also and this is the one that really gets me that I I find very fascinating because it it. It’s suggestive of things that come up later while being unique to it. He he talks about. The good gods or as we would later call them the lords of stability he calls them the lords of glory right? And then the gods of change are called the rulers of the shadow which.

12:31.74
Victor
Yes, yes.

12:41.50
James
Find really like that’s quite evocative right? It’s but it’s language that we don’t see anywhere else that I can recall least not in in in subsequent Tecama materials that.

12:48.17
Victor
You know I I don’t think that we see those specific references elsewhere. Although to the extent that the book of Eben bindings represents very much a um, the The. The demons demons more associated with gods of change than with gods of stability that that that’s in line with that.

13:17.36
James
You right? Yes I mean again, it’s there’s a lot of interplay going on that that early period of techml from 75 or a little before when he’s first starting to put the rules together up until around the time we get. Um. The tech metal source book all the swords and glory starts to appear is really fascinating. Um, because things are clearly in flux and ideas are getting reframed and recontextualized thinking about things more fully than they had before. So there’s it’s not surprising to me that there is some. Variability in the terminology that will come up at the time as well as even some of the ideas that he’s playing with so it’s it’s ah it’s it’s a pretty interesting thing to see I mean this this game in and of itself I mean even from a rules perspective. It’s fascinating because you know it’s. It is about a gladiatorial combat between spellcasters and it has a really interesting system of magic that is. It’s basically ah a spellpoint system. We don’t get that in empire the pedal throne even though a lot of the spells are clearly the same ones that you see in ept. But he has a different rule set for it and I don’t know again I find that really quite fascinating to think that he was playing around with these different concepts quite early. Um and I don’t I honestly don’t know I’m not knowledgeable enough to be able to say when what’s the first.

14:40.90
Victor
Um, very early. Yeah.

14:49.70
James
Spellpoint system that you see in a role-playing game.

14:50.80
Victor
Ah, that you see in a role-playing game I’m not so sure about spellpoint systems began to be developed and presented in alarms and excursions ah somewhere in the.

14:56.80
James
Um, yeah.

15:10.40
Victor
I don’t know if that happened in that the the half year of 1975 that um, ah when Annie was started ah I’d have to go back and look but I suspect that by 76 or 77 you started to see spellpoint systems in there. Ah, being being used. So.

15:33.35
James
Anyway, it’s it’s It’s very fascinating.

15:36.72
Victor
Yeah, that it’s It’s funny and when I went back and looked at this I realized there is way more material in there than I had really remembered I had read I had remembered a you know the game itself but there is this section I’m just going to read this here I mean there’s just.

15:52.20
James
Where is this.

15:55.37
Victor
Ah, it’s so on page 2 they said ah it says here there are other occasions for magical combat within the empire of soianu as well rivalry between 2 servants of the same deity is often settled within the sacred precincts. Of the temple with no onlookers other than the masters of the order and again that it’s like ok ah a second common meeting ground for such duels is the college of the priesthoods. Ah where those aspiring to any of the orders.

16:18.66
James
It up? Yes, yes.

16:34.70
Victor
Are trained and I want to come back to that in a minute a branch of this college is to be found in several of the major cities of the imperial still another locale is the imperial courts where certain types of legal claims may be settled at the option of both claimants. I think this is a typo. It’s by trial of battle. It’s b trial of battle physical or magical. There is thus a variety of opportunities for players in petal throne campaigns to switch to these rules in order to settle their differences and earn greater glory and renown thereby. So interestingly enough this ends up explaining a location in jakalla which yes, the priestly college of Redic Tano and it’s like you know it’s it’s mentioned in the key but it’s not.

17:16.82
James
Yes, I was thinking that.

17:31.90
Victor
Really talked about after that I Certainly don’t recall much mention of it later on and um, the idea that.

17:33.83
James
I yeah.

17:49.52
Victor
Ah, you know you you know if you have a dispute with someone in in your own faith. You go to the temple and settle it there or at the college you know it’s like priestly college verric Tano Now now we know a little bit more about what it does right.

18:04.21
James
Um, yeah, yeah.

18:06.90
Victor
I suspect that if people looked at this on their own. They probably would have ended up saying well you know you arrive fresh off the boat and then you go to the temple and and you get trained there and that’s that but this seems to suggest that there’s some sort of more shared. Educational, um, setting for for new characters. Very Roy.

18:28.83
James
Right? right? Well again, it’s It’s early and I suspect the the conception of soanu and it society was still in the process of evolving I mean it’s a very very early. Time period. Um, in the history of of Techml as a um role playing or or gaming. Let’s say setting.

19:02.96
Victor
And you can tell that interestingly enough ah the game equipment is a set of rules a game board 2 sets of number die cut counters. Ah, and then. Following further items are needed several pairs of 6 sided dice a pair of 20 sighted percentile dice and notice this is before 10 siders occur even the notation of these are usable both as 10 sided dice and as 20 sided dice right? so. And then turn record sheets modeled on set the sample supplied with these rules. So so there’s this big notation that Professor Barker makes ah at the bottom and page too where he says that you know this system isn’t the same as presented in empire the pedal throne.

19:36.40
James
Right.

19:50.92
James
Yes.

19:53.22
Victor
And that that goes a long way towards explaining some of the differences and to my mind when I was looking at this I I have to say I thought I started seeing what were precursors to the system that’s presented. In Swords and glory.

20:14.40
James
Well yeah, it’s It’s a fascinating thing I mean I guess it makes sense given that this is a very narrowly focused um game. You know it’s sort of a.

20:25.93
James
I Don’t know what you would call it a not quite a war game exactly but it’s a simulation of combat of gladiatorial combat between Spellcasters. So Its focus is much more narrow on magic and how it works in the context of of this sort of this this ritualized Battle. Um. But the spells are a lot more detailed um than those in empire of the pedal throne and I have to confess you know having re having looked back over this in preparation for ah for our discussion.

20:48.34
Victor
Um, yes.

21:01.83
James
I had forgotten how much material there is in here like it really does um, have a lot more to say about these things and there have been times when I’ve been running my EpT campaign that I wished now that I had remembered. That it was here so that I could have gone back and taken a look at it because you know I’ve tried very hard as I think I’ve said on many occasions to stick more closely to the ept presentation of of magic I still crib from Swords and glory in various places because there’s there bits Of. Of flavor and um, complexity that I like as the campaign has evolved but this does a really good.. It’s a nice little magical supplement to empire the pedal throne to take a look at this I mean as that section you quote just previously doesn’t um. It makes it makes a point of saying um some spells are omitted because they have no relevance to this kind of combat um between spellcasters. Um, so everything isn’t there but many of the spells that are either directly offensive or defensive you get. A lot of discussion of and expert further explanations of things and I I appreciate that that’s it’s really, It’s quite fascinating.

22:23.61
Victor
Yes, and it also shows that the magic system I I attended to think I have in fact, for quite some time tended to think that the magic system as presented in empire the pedal throne. Was well the term I’ve used is d and deified. Ah and I think that there’s some of that that’s actually there but in in a very real way I look at the the spell system the magic system that’s presented in war of wizards and. It’s well it’s feels more like tech Aml ah and and and I hate to say it I I’m just not at all sure if that’s just me, you know, seeing it in retrospect.

23:07.40
James
Yeah, yeah.

23:16.36
Victor
But it certainly has much more of what I would think of as being a um, ah yeah, a feel of what techanel would seem like to me. So.

23:32.23
James
Well, the other thing I think that’s worth noting too from that perspective is that war of wizards makes a distinction between ah priests and magic users or sorcerers as it calls them here. Um. In terms of their spell casting the list of spells that they’re capable of using there are certain spells that are only usable by sorcerers and some that are only usable by priests. Um and they aren’t. All the kinds of things some of them map on to the professional skills that you have an ept that are for magic users and priests but others of them are spells that are just on the the general list of spells that any spellcaster and Ept can learn. So I find it interesting that in war wizards there’s ah, a finer distinction between a sorcerer and a priest It’s also worth noting too that in the introduction sorcerers are described as lay priests like that terminology that gets teased out more in in swords and glory is already here.

24:35.33
Victor
Right.

24:37.90
James
Like he’s already thinking about it in that context. Um, which kind of makes me now wonder based on what we just said previously just this thought occurred to me do magic users sorcers where you want to call them. Do they also make use of the college of priests.

24:57.61
Victor
That’s a very good question.

24:59.50
James
Right? It just wondering you know because it it says I’d have to go back and and look at the precise wording about it because it says how does it go here. Um, it’s on that page 2 There. Yeah, it says a sorcerer who in this world functions function as lay priests. Unattached to any temple or hierarchy yet owing allegiance to one or another of the gods. Um, just makes me wonder if maybe that the college of the priesthoods might somehow? um. Be relevant to to them as well to the sourcers I don’t know. Yeah, it doesn’t explain all of that. Um, but it’s just a thought.

25:40.29
Victor
Well and it suggests that the the difference is largely a social one that you know the an organizational one that priests are part of a hierarchy and sorcerers are not.

25:55.27
James
I month Yes, though there as I said there there is also a little bit more to it than that because there’s some spells that priests have oh I see I see.

26:00.15
Victor
Oh but that that what I that I’m I’m thinking of that as being the origin of that difference that it comes about you you you have to decide. Are you going to join the hierarchy or are you going to maintain your independence if you do then these are the spells that you have access to.

26:12.54
James
Right.

26:19.79
Victor
Whereas if you you know are part of the priesthood then you have access to these utter spells. Um, but again I think there’s there’s an interesting opportunity there to make more of the college of the priesthoods in order to be a.

26:21.59
James
Yes, yes.

26:37.96
Victor
Ah, way to introduce people to the the the temples and the temple hierarchy.

26:38.52
James
Um, yes.

26:44.81
James
Yeah, now have you ever made use of war wizards no neither night night neither have i.

26:50.35
Victor
No I haven’t and and and what you were saying earlier about if you had really gone back and looked at it you have used it more I felt exactly the same way I was nodding the entire time you were talking.

27:07.31
James
Yeah I was just wondering you know, um, when this was created how common but was it used at all by Professor Barker as part of the camp like was were there any occasions where it. Came about or was it just sort of a separate kind of a fun thing that you could do that was set as a kind of adjunct to an ep the ep t campaign or was it just an experiment because you know when you say you pointed out that that dedication to bill Hoyt. And how or special. Thanks I should say that he suggested that the game. Um, it’s it just makes me wonder you know what? what purpose did this serve um in the original techml campaign if any and if there were others.

27:38.20
Victor
Special. Thanks yeah.

27:56.46
James
Who were running techml campaigns Ept Campaigns back in the 70 s if they ever made use of it because you know I wouldn’t say war wizards is is is super obscure. Um, but it’s also not one of the more celebrated things. People don’t talk about it. A great deal that I can recall.

28:14.55
Victor
Yeah I would agree with you about that. There are a couple of pieces of this that are probably I mean a couple of things that just come to mind to me immediately about what war of wizards would be used for or could be used for and that would be. 1 of the things that it it directly works into is the choosing of emperors. Ah this is a thing that gets mentioned ah early on. Right.

28:53.46
James
Yes, yes, well right? because I mean we don’t know I mean correct me I’m wrong. We don’t know specifically all the challenges that are that make up the choosing of the emperor. Um, but we know that there are there are multiple um.

29:08.90
Victor
That’s right.

29:11.14
James
There are multiple rounds or whatever you want to call it of it. It’s not merely one thing and that there are magical contests that take place and that the candidates for the throne can either personally participate in these things or select champions that do it on their behalf. Um.

29:28.13
Victor
That’s correct right.

29:31.80
James
So yeah, that’d be interesting but then that puts you know into my head and again I don’t remember if I’ve talked to you about this. We could have done it on the podcast. It’s hard to remember or this may have just been some other thing I think it’ll be really fascinating if there were a choosing of the emperor’s game right.

29:48.28
Victor
Um, oh absolutely the call him mejalin.

29:49.60
James
Where you you do? Yeah, that would be really a lot of fun actually.

29:53.85
Victor
Well and so some of those are mentioned in empire the pedal throne all right? Ah, the children of the throne are brought up at avantar by the omnipotent azure legion of course except the ones that are hidden away. That’s not mentioned immediately. And upon the death of the emperor they are taken forth to compete in many types of tests for the throne physical prowess intellectual brilliance knowledge of arts and letters abilities as a sorcerer musical talent all are judged. And the major candidates are then taken to the temple of thah’s supreme principle in beu where one is chosen by the god interestingly enough according to secret ritual the rest are ceremonially sacrificed. So so we have a ah listing here of the different things. And it’s funny. Ah that that comes up that way because one of the things that we know from the history of of tech andl gaming is that um, this actually got used in a game. That and this was reported in space gamer number 6 ah and here’s the thing to think about space gamer number 6 is published in June July of 1976 so it’s like a year like you know, less than a year

31:25.76
James
And right right.

31:25.85
Victor
After empire of the pedal throne and war wizard throughout and ah Robert L Large Jr began with the premise that our beloved emperor is already dead and he went on to describe the subsequent battle between the various heirs to the pedal throne and his version. The emperor’s single Adani daughter Princess Mayin Quiai ah won the battle is now empress and this this must have taken Professor Barker somewhat aback because his next wine. In in replies at last report. However, the glorious sixty first seal emperor Hitri Khanate zakotami is still alive in well in avan thar although a trifles slowed by his 70 years we thus have an immediate and serious case of parallel universe development. Which is something he later goes on and accepts and and.

32:19.23
James
Although you know to me it makes perfect sense that um, a player. Ah, who is ah, not knowledgeable. What’s going on in in the Professor Barker’s own campaign would have done something like that because a big part. Of the um, the presentation of Techamil and ept is the suggestion that the emperor is not long for this world and that there will be a succession um challenge these challenges will take place and that one of these several candidates I mean quite a bit.

32:43.99
Victor
Um, absolutely.

32:53.93
James
Information is presented about the various factions that are involved in which candidates they prefer and what this could could mean for fort solyanu and and its future. So It makes perfect sense that that would be the case. Um I I do remember it.. It’s also Interesting. You know that you read the material From. From Empire the pedal throne about the choosing of the emperors because I know there’s a much more extensive. Well maybe it’s not much more but there is a more extensive version in Swords and glory that talks about and I think it talks about there being a very large number of challenges. And with regards to the the champions I think I have would have to look that. Um it stated that Champions can only be used for some number of the challenges that the candidates for emperor themselves have to participate. In others that you can’t just have champions represent you in in all areas. But you know you you get a set number I think it’s 3 because I want to say it’s 3 something like that and you can use it. So if you are say sellna and you have no skill as a sorcerer. Um.

33:58.70
Victor
I Believe so.

34:10.10
James
You know you you find your your best man to represent you in that case. Um, but you can’t escape all the others you have to participate in them. Um, yeah I Still think it’ll be a really great I’ll be a we a fascinating thing ah to do in a campaign. When it gets round to it to have the various players take on the role of a different um you know heir to the throne and play through that and see where it goes I kind of like that just because I’m personally very fond of the idea of even. The game master sometimes being surprised about what happens in his own campaign right.

34:50.24
Victor
Oh absolutely and that too has something of a tradition in empire the pal throne and in the world of techmel. Um.

34:58.27
James
And although I think I can’t speak for you. But I think I probably enjoy it more than Professor Barker did

35:08.30
Victor
I would have to agree. Ah you know the the now somewhat oft quoted story about how Princess may was converted from the worship of ah the goddess of Ante to the worship of the goddess dle meish. Um.

35:24.67
James
And I I will give him credit for having accepted that you know rolled with the punches. Even if it was through gritted teeth.

35:24.81
Victor
Was accomplished by a player character using an eye or had been found in the Jacollan Underworld and ah.

35:35.99
Victor
Yeah, no I think that there was something rather amazing about that. But that’s also I mean that gets carried forward. There was a player character that was involved in sparking the actual beginning of the war between yoncor and soianu.

35:51.67
James
Up right.

35:55.71
Victor
Um, and ah player character actions have influenced ah the outcomes of different historical and and contemporary events. You know all throughout the campaign. The thing about it is that Professor Barker I think quite rightly wanted to ah step away from that in writing about it to sort of maintain the the sense of this is the world and to ah you know not highlight and this is what characters did this week although you can read between the lines and pick that up from ah the reports submitted to the pedal throne.

36:30.98
James
And sure of course of course. Yeah, so back to war of wizards. Um is this something that will ever be made available again.

36:47.38
Victor
I Get to be honest, after looking at it again I can’t see any reason why it shouldn’t be and in fact, ah the only thing that I could think of that could potentially improve it would be to get better counters. Ah.

36:58.42
James
Right? right? right.

37:01.92
Victor
You know that the rules themselves I think are perfectly Fine. Um, and that if nothing else One of the things that we might consider doing is the foundation can look at doing is just simply taking the the rules themselves. And the playboard and make those available again. Ah you know playboard would be very easy to do.

37:26.21
badger2305
So I’m going to jump in real quick here. Ah Victor. Can you go back? You garbled up just a little bit before you were just before you were talking about the playboard.

37:33.81
Victor
Almost okay, so the techml foundation ah would have no difficulty in making these materials available again. And in fact I had not. Realized how easy it probably would be to do we could reproduce the war of wizards board which interestingly enough looks like it would fit quite neatly onto an 11 by 17 or 12 by 18 mini card.

38:03.98
James
And.

38:08.42
Victor
And then making the bookload available as well. The only thing that we’d have to do is probably put together the counters and I have to say that’s probably the the most inelegant part of this is the counters themselves are colored and numbered in that set you know the the height of what was available in. Um, you know the early 70 s but I think we could do a little bit better today.

38:35.44
James
And yeah I think it will be great to make it more available to people because I just don’t think it’s very well known for the most part. Um.

38:43.70
Victor
Yeah, now the the other thing that we could consider doing is also making it available through the gamecrafter which does print on Demand board games. Ah so so that’s a project and actually a fairly.

38:52.36
James
I Yes, that’s right.

39:00.83
Victor
Scalable relatively easy project to do now. Yeah, it’s interesting. The original game itself. The box set included ah 4 miniatures interestingly enough and these miniatures.

39:01.94
James
Even better.

39:19.69
Victor
Were made by grenadier. Yes I have my boxed set here has them and embossed on the bottom of.

39:21.42
James
Were they.

39:37.30
Victor
Yeah, of 2 of the figures which also dates it to some extent. Yeah, these figures were ah cast. It looks like as a set. Grenadier copyright 1977 and they’re not very to be honest, they’re not very techamel specific. They look much more to be just sort of ordinary. Ah.

40:03.86
James
And.

40:12.28
Victor
Um, or or ordinary magic user like figures if if nothing else they’re clothed too much. Ah.

40:21.49
James
Right? right? right? Well I’ve never seen them myself. Um, that’s that’s interesting that it was and grandier that did them. Um again I’m not.

40:32.58
Victor
And they’re and they’re interestingly enough they’re fifteen Millimeter figures yeah they’re not 25 s they’re 15 S.

40:38.57
James
Oh they’re 15 millimeter ha oh I guess they were designed to be able to fit onto the the game board right? But that’s still fascinating to me that if they’re they’re grenadier because um.

40:46.81
Victor
Yep.

40:53.13
James
When did grenadier start producing the a d and d minnies what year was that and I don’t know I was it 77

40:58.93
Victor
I I I don’t know I it may very well have been 77 gives you the monster manual in August of 77 so ah, that would be the time they would think about starting to produce those um certainly by 78 they would have been producing figures potentially related to the a d and d line because of the players handbook. But yes, um. August of 77 for the monster manual.

41:38.78
James
Yeah I was just wondering how how contemporary um they were with one another. But in any case, that’s that’s interesting because there were Techamel Minis produced um in the seventy s weren’t they. Warther.

41:57.23
Victor
Ah, well yeah, the the Bill Murray figures the old guard figures were produced in the seventy s that was the see It’s funny. Ah, there was very little expectation that a relatively small producer like Bill Murray would have ah put together the figures for check himel but. Professor Barker really liked the sculpts of those figures and and probably also liked the terms that bill offered for producing the mintures in the first place. Certainly you know in conjunction with tsr who. Was also involved in making that decision since tsr at the time ah was producing techamil material.

42:52.86
Victor
Have I lost you? Okay, yeah, no I’m sorry um, no, as far as the the the miniatures the the as far as the miniatures themselves are concerned.

42:54.86
James
I No I Just didn’t know what to say in response to that.

43:02.14
badger2305
1980

43:04.15
James
Oh okay, oh.

43:10.27
Victor
Yeah, it looks as though they were all cast as a four fifteen millimeter set they’re relatively generic looking magic users and yeah, so.

43:20.69
James
I wonder if they happen to be preexisting miniatures that could have been repurposed. Um because based on the information that we were just given um grenadier did not start producing its a d and d line until 1980 so this is.

43:22.97
Victor
All They may very well have been.

43:34.24
Victor
1980

43:37.40
James
Three years prior to that I thought that was around the time period I thought maybe it could have been seventy nine after because I recall again I could be mistaken I recall that the dunge masters guide mentions in it in the beginning where they’re talking about when and when Guyax is talking about you. The use of miniatures. Um, with the game that grenadier has a license to produce many for a d and d official ones and I don’t remember whether he said that they were upcoming or were currently available. But so I was thinking 79 but I guess it’s eighty and if that’s correct which I have no reason to doubt then that means these miniatures came out. 3 hree years prior. Um, if if you say they’re 77 on the bottom and I just makes me wonder maybe they were preexisting because I think gretadir had a line of um wizards and warriors or something like that. There was.

44:29.70
Victor
That sounds right wizards and warriors that appears relatively early on I think wizards was spelled with two Z’s if I were.

44:38.30
James
It was yes that’s that’s what I’m thinking of and they weren’t specifically for any game. Um, but they could be used with with D and D and I think it was on the strength of those miniatures that they got the license eventually to do them so it makes me Wonder. And I’m no expert in these things So someone have to go digging. Maybe the war of wizards sorcerers. Um come from the wizards and Warriors line I don’t know I mean it just seems interesting to me that um, it’s are so early compared to when Tsr had a formal relationship with them and they might just have.

45:09.30
Victor
Um, yeah.

45:14.30
James
Repurposed existing ones but I I don’t really know.

45:17.99
Victor
Yes, ah, and again, this is from dragon number 4 ah the introduction to reports submitted to the pedal throne. The best news of all is that by the time you read this. It is hope that some initial pedal throne. Twenty Five Millimeter figures will be out produced by the old guard. The prototypes I’ve seen are amongst the best Twenty Five Millimeter figures I have ever seen ever capitalized. These will be accompanied by a painting guide and orders of battle for all of the 5 major empires and also some remarks. On the organizations of the non-humans a supplement of further materials on history and culture is contemplated you know and he goes on to talk about a question answer format which shows up later in the dragon number 9 and the dragon number eleven. So.

46:14.29
Victor
So this is such a a time of ferment in the hobby is such a time of of creativity and imagination with nobody being able to say well that’s not how it used to be done because it hadn’t been done before. Ah. And so I have to think that. Ah yeah, when tsr picked up war of wizards. Ah, that is apparently at 1 of the points when they began to think about miniatures because these miniatures are included in the game and the game the box set. Came out significantly before 1980 that’s for sure.

46:50.59
James
That absolutely yeah, that’s true that that probably it’s got to be 1 of the earliest ins where tsr made use of min that they were selling a product that that included miniatures or made use of them in that sort of way that I can think of. Again, someone who knows better can let us know they and they probably will.

47:09.84
Victor
Now right? they probably will I’ll play who knows possibly in the comments. Um, but the differences In. So. Bells and how combat is done I Have to say that one of the things that we might do at some point is actually play through this and try it out at some point and then report back about it. So yeah, we should. We should have a ah.

47:41.93
James
Yeah, that sounds great. You.

47:45.32
Victor
We we should try that at some point. Um, and if we do that I think we’ll have a chance. Yeah, just the descriptions of the spells themselves are a little bit more detailed now. It’s funny. There are so many references in here to pedal throne I have to think. That this was developed at almost exactly the same time because there’s various creatures that are ah that are mentioned in all of which are taken from the um, ah. You know from the listing of monsters in empire of the pedal throne. Ah, but also there’s there’s interesting notes here that ah it may not necessarily be um, common between the 2 rightm. Ok. So creatures of group 2 this is on page 17 ah 1 to 2 larger creatures may be sent per turn phase poisonous species must add plus one as above pedal throne creatures may include Zoor. <unk> zerne or such creation creations of the ancients as the rooon bitterard blue etc. The ruin yes, the bitter blue I think there’s a passing mention There’s a passing mention of the bitter blue being.

49:09.72
James
And.

49:20.58
Victor
Ah, creation of the ancient but that ends up providing some interesting context.

49:28.16
James
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well again that this is this is for me I mean that’s the when I acquired my copy of war wizards it was primarily out of a sense of completeness I just wanted to get as much techme material as possible but the secondary reason for doing so was just having. Another sort of data point about the development of techl and what it was like and it is. It’s a constant source of wonder to me how material gets sort of information about the setting gets. Ah, disseminated through these different channels right? I mean there’s empire the po throne of course. But then there’s war of wizards which I think a lot of people kind of overlook because they just think that it’s this little war game. Um, this this you know gladiatorial combat thing a kind of ah a trifle. That doesn’t have any real value to them as as role players. Um and I can understand why that is but that’s the reason why I still find it really fascinating because you have stuff like that that’s in there these suggestions of how Professor Barker was conceiving of things in the early days and in some cases. They may have been things that continued he continued to think of them that way even if he didn’t um wasn’t as explicit about the the details. So I find that that kind of kind of interesting.

50:55.49
Victor
I Have to admit that the next thing that I want to think about doing is taking war of wizards and editing it with an eye towards creating a spell system an alternative spell system for empire the pedal throne.

51:10.90
James
I Think that would be a wonderful thing to do I Think that’s absolutely terrific. No I don’t I don’t it would be different. It would be different and again that’s sort of like a weird um, not weird, but a a bridge.

51:16.13
Victor
And I don’t think it would be that difficult but it would be different. Yeah.

51:29.19
James
Between Ept and what you get in Swords and glory because again, it’s a spellpoint system and how many points that you have is is variable depending on a bunch of different factors and I don’t know I think that’s that’s fascinating. And if you ever did do that that’d be something great to talk about.

51:49.22
Victor
Yeah, and here’s ah, another example of a little difference here. Um this is creatures of group 3 this is on page 18 warriors. 1 mighty fighter can be sent per turn phase for pedal thrown players. This may be a lord that is to say ah a a warrior of a particular experience level a high level sioux etc while players of other campaigns may send a powerful superhero award. Ah, if players wish to send a specific hero and e g in the pedal throne one might call upon the famous hero of legend Hagar of Perantta or penarte of Kaatris while on other campaigns 1 may summon the indomitable heroes of such authors as. REHowardERBurroughs etc. So.

52:42.20
James
Well, there isn’t There is a note in the beginning that though these rules are designed for use in Techml they could be repurposed for other fantasy settings.

52:51.31
Victor
Sure. So So yes, so there there are details in here that line up with pedal thrown and other ones where it’s like wait this this is that this is additional material. It’s it’s it’s. It adds complexity in a way that I don’t think most empire of the pedal throne players would even have thought of yeah, so well I I feel.

53:15.71
James
I Absolutely yeah.

53:28.66
Victor
We we started off with a you know, looking at this and that’s kind of interesting and and now I’m thinking of this gosh. There’s there’s project school war to come out of this which is not a bad thing at all and I do think we should play it. Yeah.

53:38.34
James
So yeah, I’m glad we took a look at this I think it’s terrific. Um, and frankly, yeah sure I think that would be terrific. Yeah I think this is actually a very fruitful line of Exploration. And I don’t know I liked talking about this a lot. But.

53:55.55
Victor
Yes I I I agree completely? Um, so war of wizards the lost supplement of empire that that will throw.

54:09.20
badger2305
I So is that where we want to call it today. Okay I mean I’ll do the questions I you you guys were doing so great I just decided I’m going to go have a cigarette because I don’t know how long this is gonna.

54:12.85
James
I I think so.

54:14.34
Victor
I Think so too.

54:27.96
badger2305
Um, no, that was great stuff I do have more questions once I finish this up that I will ask because questions are good unless you guys feel you’ve covered the topic completely Some of them are stylistic questions that sort of thing.

54:40.99
James
So go ahead.

54:42.30
Victor
Go ahead? yeah.

54:44.30
badger2305
Okay, cool. Give me all of maybe 2 minutes if that’s all right with you guys. Obviously you guys are good friends so chat amongst yourselves in the meantime wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had to cut chaff off of an episode.

54:49.48
Victor
Sure No, that’s fine.

55:02.56
Victor
Yeah, ah yeah, no I There’s a lot here.

55:09.76
badger2305
Although like I could bring up. Um, the fact that you guys said you wanted to play it and I think it might be great content. You guys could dual for the podcast in war of wizards.

55:24.21
Victor
Maybe.

55:25.95
badger2305
It was just an idea that like shot into my head when you were like yeah we should play this I’m like I bet your listeners would love to hear you guys duel.

55:38.48
Victor
Um, ah you know I don’t want to speak for James but both of us have mentioned and and to each other in the past that um our own I mean my own um reaction to um, live play is like watching paint dry.

55:54.88
James
I’m similar. Yes, it’s true.

55:55.69
badger2305
Which well and that’s that’s fair, Um, my only addition to that would be that um I would slice it up with you know some background music some sound effects for the spells. You’re casting so it wasn’t.

56:13.40
badger2305
Boring just dice rolling I cast this but but of course I mean again, that’s your creative decision.

56:20.57
Victor
I have to I I’d have to yeah I’d I’d have to think about it I’m I’m not at all sure I think part of is that even even with enhancement I Wonder to what extent it would not translate well to a podcast. But.

56:37.16
badger2305
Um, well and I could I can always you know? um.

56:38.40
Victor
I could be wrong.

56:45.39
badger2305
Give you guys the link to the d and d podcast we did because we don’t um James I don’t believe I told you about this? um or maybe I did when we first met. Um.

57:01.80
badger2305
We’re not a D and D podcast by any means or a techmel podcast or an Rpg podcast. But as one of our comeback from the seasons. We did a whole thing where we had to escape the beer gods.

57:14.91
Victor
So there.

57:18.46
badger2305
So we ran a D and D campaign as ourselves and I spruced it up and made it way more interesting than most of the D and D podcasts you hear where it’s just a whole bunch of people laughing and having a good time and made it into an actual action adventure.

57:26.31
Victor
Like ah right from with.

57:36.15
badger2305
That wasn’t boring now again, of course the creative decisions are up to you Guys. You guys make the podcast I was just thinking that could be a thing but of course on top of it. Um, you mentioned. The workshopping of the cast vector or sorry the workshopping of retooling it and I think that could be interesting but of course those are just a few ideas I had for the next cast.

57:56.15
Victor
Here.

58:01.19
James
We’re left to.

58:10.62
Victor
Yeah I don’t think we’re going to come back to this immediately like this. Ah we we we may very well want to talk about it in more detail but there’s always more stuff to talk to? Um I think I mean I I hesitate to speak for James but um, yeah, ah.

58:11.99
badger2305
Okay.

58:28.98
Victor
I think that’s the thing James that should probably talk about.

58:31.45
badger2305
Okay, okay, yeah, and you know just trying to do my whole job and coming up with ideas for next cast. But um, if both of you are ready I can do the questions now. Okay I’m and.

58:42.17
James
Yeah, please.

58:45.20
Victor
Um, yeah, sure.

58:48.54
badger2305
Sorry, don’t mind me I’m doing this for myself I’m going to be clapping quite loudly so that I can see it in the audio feed. So victor you mentioned the colleges and as a D and D player that sort of came up in my brain.

59:00.75
Victor
You know stuff.

59:06.54
badger2305
Have you guys talked about the initial point where colleges of magic or the colleges of a bard etc originated. Well.

59:17.80
Victor
And um because the different temples in Tech Amel Represent different.

59:30.77
Victor
Ideas different realms of understanding um those largely substitute for what would be thought of India India’s colleges ah the fact that there’s a mention of the priestly college of verac tau. Is actually probably more notable for the fact that it is somewhat pantheistic than anything else when so much of the rest of techml’s approach to magic and theology is very clearly segregated so but it’s the gods that define these things. James.

01:00:09.75
James
Um, yeah I mean we certainly have it’s not. It’s not something we’ve ever really talked about I think um except to the extent that I think when we did the walking tour of Jacalla We we pointed out the college of priests. Um and wondering what that was because it’s something.

01:00:25.66
Victor
Right.

01:00:29.46
James
That didn’t have any um it wasn’t clear what that was supposed to mean at that it in in Techl and there’s no it was no description of it So we sort of pondered that a bit but I don’t think it’s a topic we ever really thought much about up to this point. Um. And as you say you know the temples tend to be sort of um, independent entities unto themselves they have certain relationships with each other but there’s never never been any kind of suggestion of something that included all of them though. There are. There is a college of the priesthoods. That’s part of the government right? like with like the Palace of the Realm and the Palace of war and all that sort of thing right? So There’s sort of that that it’s not the same precisely. Um, that has a governmental role.

01:01:10.64
Victor
How else are the priesthoods. Yeah.

01:01:18.43
Victor
And yeah, and in even there there’s a division between good and evil law and so you know stability and change on chaos there. But again I think that has more to do with the social definition of these things you know? oh you’re with that type you go over here.

01:01:40.28
James
And right right? right and of course that’s the thing about techkel in general is that the social aspect is very very strong in it I think that’s one of the things that really sets techkel apart from other fantasy settings of its time and. Honestly, even today is that there’s a great deal more thought given to the sort of social um plate the place for where where the characters are. They’re not rootless sort of um wanderers they have um. You know what status and ah, um, class and and and role in ah, a larger society and that’s sort of what drives a lot of the um, the adventure and the the things that you will. You will do ah in the course of ah of an ep campaign. So yeah. There. That’s I think that’s about it and.

01:02:37.87
badger2305
So okay, so James you and Victor had both mentioned that war wizards as well as the empire of the pedal throne were basically made in tandem or were being developed in tandem now. Can you speculate as to.

01:02:52.15
James
Oh.

01:02:57.64
badger2305
Why there was a necessity to make a different rule set for.

01:03:03.25
James
Um, I think they probably because they serve different purposes I mean one of the things that’s pretty clear um in the early history of rpgs certain I mean this is only a year or 2 after the publication of of D and D um. The idea that you would necessarily have a single rule set to cover different things was um I don’t think anyone have really considered it. It was I mean partially because you have ah a war gaming tradition. That’s still going on both. Board were games of sort of hex and shitt things and miniatures were games and that people were very comfortable at the time of okay, you have your D and D campaign you’re playing the D and D rules Why you’re exploring the dungeon or wandering about. But then when you have a big battle you crack out your copy of chain mail or whatever. And you just translate it over to that people I think just accepted that as the way things were done so it it doesn’t surprise me that war of wizards because it was a standalone game that could be used as an adjunct or ept but it wasn’t specifically meant to be a supplement to to empire the pedal throne.

01:04:08.75
Victor
Yeah, now it’s it’s funny. You should say that James because that’s one of the things about I was reviewing mentions of other rules in empire the pedal throne and professor burker is like he’s left and right he does that in different parts of ep he talks about.

01:04:11.10
James
Um.

01:04:28.36
Victor
If there’s gladiatorial combat you know in the hitro lock day arena that you end up. Yeah, you should you know if you if you want something more than what’s here. Go and drag out the set of rules from a british publisher which are probably now out of print and or war of wizards so and he does that for like. AhC combat and for ah 1 or 2 other things. Yeah, so in fact, empire the pedal throne is somewhat unusual in the fact that it actually has a set of mass combat rules. Ok that yeah. That was another thing I found when I was going back and looking through this that um there is a set of mass combat rules. Ah for when you have um, yeah dozens if not hundreds of ah ah troops on a side. And that’s section 7 27 larger combats and not too surprisingly he suggests that if you um, if you want outdoors combat on a large scale. Yes, go indeed, go find your copy of chain mail and there you go.

01:05:43.12
badger2305
so okay so Victor you would mention that during this time there was such creativity now I’m not trying to read too much into the way that you said it but would you say that there may be a lack of that in the hobby currently and.

01:05:49.38
Victor
I have.

01:06:03.58
Victor
And ah, no, not exactly in the same way. Let me let me try to get at that a little bit more fully. Um the the greatest advantage that was had back in the mid 70 s was. There had been no prior precedent that ah that could also be construed as being the greatest disadvantage because nobody knew what was going to work right? People would I mean in fact, there are examples of um role-playing games that ah. Are forgotten now and rightly so because they were ah you know, somebody’s great idea for how to improve on d and d and it sure wasn’t that I would say legacy would be an example and that James have you’ve seen that right.

01:06:53.56
James
Which one is legacy.

01:06:56.84
Victor
Legacy if I’m recalling Correctly, it’s the one with these sort of white cover black and white art. Um it it it touts itself as being a not just a role-playing game but a role something something game.

01:07:13.68
James
Oh.

01:07:15.67
Victor
Ah, and and it was it was obtuse and got worse from there. So that’s an example. Yeah I I may be misremembering the name I’d have to go the look. Um, but no I mean people were coming up with stuff and saying here. Let’s go try this.

01:07:21.14
James
That that doesn’t ring a bell. Yeah I don’t think I’ve seen that one.

01:07:36.31
Victor
And that was great because there wasn’t anyone to say no that I’ll never work or that’s just a copy of something else very little if anything was really a copy of anything at the time. Um I’m sure somebody will come back and say well technically that’s not true, but. They can be technically correct about that if they wish ah no I think that in comparison to today. Um I think there’s a lot of let’s do things because that’s the way we’ve always done it. Um I think. Some Wag could also suggest that you know if we’re talking about empire the pedal throne we we could be doing the very same thing and I feel like we’re rediscovering the game now rather than doing it because we’ve quite always done it this way if anything I think techml has. Morphed and evolved over time in response to what people find interesting about it.

01:08:37.67
badger2305
Okay, James, you said you’ve cribbed from other places. Granted, that’s not an adjective or sorry a verb that I’ve heard before for your ept campaign. What are some of the other places that you’ve grabbed from for your empire the pedal throne campaign.

01:08:56.46
James
Oh primarily just other um techamil materials that came later. Um when I when I started my campaign I wanted to stick. As close as possible to empire the pellth throne as it was 1975 I I just wanted to see what the game was like and what the world was as it was presented in that first rulebook. But as time went on and I needed additional material I started using later techml things primarily the the techml source book. Swords and glory which what years as 165 I don’t remember 82 um, that was primarily what I use I have not used things from other fantasy settings or or roleplaying games that aren’t techml related it. It was that was pretty much all I meant by that.

01:09:27.30
Victor
82 yeah

01:09:43.53
Victor
There’s a ah lot of techcail to creep from.

01:09:45.67
James
You? Oh yeah, absolutely and as we talked about before there are a bunch of different tech ammls just even Professor Barker’s techml there are different iterations of it some of them even contemporaneous with each other I mean this is the famous game techaml versus novel techamml which are slight.

01:09:55.36
Victor
Um, absolutely.

01:10:05.35
James
Different from 1 another. But then there’s just the different stages of the evolution of it and then there are the techamels that various people have created in their home campaigns as they have accepted. Certain aspects of the setting and twisted others or or left them out or I’ll take this part and use it. But I don’t like that other and I’ll add this. So there’s a bunch of different techmls but but for mine, it’s it’s primarily just looking at. Some of the later material and adapting it as seemed appropriate for what I was doing in my campaign and.

01:10:36.44
Victor
Yeah, no I and I think that that’s exactly what people what would be worthwhile for people to do is to take techml as presented by Professor Barker you know take his techml. And make it their techno and you know this is part of doing that.

01:11:01.50
badger2305
Okay, so you guys were talking about the illustrations that were potentially Dave Sutherland versus Professor Barker now what about their stylings makes it. So easy for the 2 of you to pick them out and.

01:11:21.41
James
Well I should add right away though that um, having just looked to confirm it. Ah Victor is absolutely correct. It’s all, um, ah professor Barkers Dave Sutherland didn’t have anything to do with it at all. But it’s an interesting question nonetheless. Um. Victor do you have a good sense of how you can identify um Professor Barker’s things I mean other than the obvious that he often signs them.

01:11:48.90
Victor
Ah, now I’m curious James where did you find the the art attributions.

01:11:52.50
James
Oh oh um I looked there. There is as I’m sure you were familiar with there is the very excellent tech Mill collecting blog and there is an entry. There’s a post about war wizards and all its various iterations.

01:12:01.42
Victor
Oh right? right? right? right? um.

01:12:08.60
James
And ah says the art is all Professor Barker’s with the exception possibly of the art on the boxed so you know on the but the box art but that art is not attributed to anyone that is definitely not Dave Sutherland it is probably not Professor Barker but whose it is we don’t know.

01:12:25.20
Victor
Yeah, it’s interesting because I looked at this and I thought it was Dave’s other one but I suppose not although and now I want to want I want to ask Karen Engelson what’s interesting about this is that the art on the box cover for. Ah there’s what appears to be a major priest of change on the left and I believe a priest of mala on or a mage of naah on the right now you know what. I hate to tell you this I’m looking at the box cover and there is a dlsutherland in in the hem on the he on the box cover. Yeah, so so I was right there but well that just goes to show that we just need more more work on on collecting.

01:13:08.12
James
And of the box cover. Well there you go.

01:13:23.30
Victor
Material and and and doing proper documentation of this stuff. But no, it’s steel Sutherland it’s quite clear. Ah and as far as the the interior artist concerned Professor Barker had a very distinctive style.

01:13:31.13
badger2305
Okay.

01:13:40.60
Victor
And it was influenced by artists like Virgil Findy and ah others and he started drawing when he was quite young and those illustrations ah are almost invariably about techno in 1 form or another.

01:13:59.41
Victor
And the you know the sort of set pieces that he created and it it. It is such a distinctive style that when I look at it now. It’s it’s pretty clear to me what you know? Ah what it comes from. Yeah I mentioned vigil finly That’s that’s 1 influence but there’s clearly others of a somewhat more baroque variety and i’m.

01:14:24.38
James
It’s interesting. You mentioned Virgil Finley like that makes perfect sense that that would be an influence and I you know until you mentioned that I I didn’t make that connection. But absolutely yes I think you’re right about that? yeah.

01:14:34.92
Victor
Yeah, well yeah.

01:14:38.80
badger2305
Okay, so you both had mentioned how only war of wizards has this idea of the gods of glory and that sort of thing.

01:14:50.46
Victor
On the lords of shadow.

01:14:54.27
badger2305
Right? Can you speculate as to why Professor Barker wouldn’t continue with those sorts of gods and instead of going back to the old gods rather than these new gods. What maybe might have changed or.

01:15:07.62
Victor
Oh that they’re the same deities. It’s how they’re referred to and how they’re conceptualized that changes but James do you have a thought on this.

01:15:19.65
James
He Well I Think as with many things he was just sort of trying on different um presentations of things. Um, you know the thing about taml that I always have liked and the thing about Tech Camel that is quite unique about it. Is. It’s um, the nomenclature the sort of Baroque way that it describes things the florid language and you know the thing is it’s not so much even that the terms lords of glory or lords of the shadow or whatever it was um are. Or wrong or mistaken because those like you could use those in regular type and you know ah in in regular standard official Techml Whatever you want to call it Canon Techml Um, just that I don’t remember ever seeing them use because most of the deities most of the gods.

01:15:59.26
Victor
Absolutely.

01:16:12.77
James
And so they have multiple um monikers titles things like this that are used to describe them? Um, so you could easily refer to the um, the gods of stability as the lords of glory if you wanted. Um, so I think it’s more just a.

01:16:31.13
James
A matter of Taste. You know as time went on he for whatever reason I wouldn’t even begin to speculate just decided that that oh that didn’t really quite capture what I wanted the way I wanted to describe them. It didn’t It didn’t evoke the right characteristics or or bring to mind. Ah, the right images and so he used other things. But I mean I Yeah I don’t think there were anything wrong about using it. It’s not that the contradicts it Well um, it’s more just that it um he he used different different terms but that’s not uncommon.

01:17:01.26
Victor
Um, yeah, sorry.

01:17:10.39
James
He did that many times throughout the development of Techml. So.

01:17:15.94
Victor
Ah, yeah, and one of the things that I would point out about that is this is where what we we may want to do actually if there was a way to continue this series. What I would think about doing is going and looking at the Mimeo. Empire the pedal throne and looking at at it for some of the differences between it and what we think of as the published version because that’s where some of this stuff is more most likely to come out I mean it’s interesting. Professor Barker for example did not. In the original game have a characteristic for Charisma Comeliness was something that he added later on as something of a supplement to his original play test rules. Um, and. The entire section that we now think of sort of the introduction of techaml at the beginning of the game came later that the original game was just sort of laid up here. You go roll some dice. Let’s let’s start playing. Um. And as far as the the words and glory lords of glory and the masters of the shadows. Um, where I’m really going with that is that the usage of the terms good and evil.

01:18:38.20
Victor
We’re not the same as the ones in d and d and that changes more forth rightly in swords and glory to stability and change. Ah, but even an empire of the pedal throne Professor Barker you know says? well you know we’re using these terms but they don’t mean. Quite the sort of difference that you think it means so.

01:19:02.72
badger2305
Okay, great is.

01:19:05.50
Victor
So yeah I I I guess what I’m saying is I agree with James forthrightly that this this is a ah trying out different reference points to see which ones ah evoke the response that. Ah, Professor Barker was hoping for.

01:19:25.59
badger2305
All right? Perfect place to stop.